Feeling Upset And Frustrated :(

JessieRosie

JessieRosie

Regular Member
I apologise for the long and emotional post that you are about to read... I've been meaning to write this for a while but I haven't known how to get it all down and i feel embarrassed and guilty so kept putting it off. But I've just gone for it and I'm sorry it's endless!

I love rosie with all of my heart, but over the 6 months she has become more and more aggressive towards me and it's really upsetting me.

For some background information.... Again sorry this is long....

I got rosie in February 2013 when she was a baby and she lived with me in my flat. In June 2015 I moved home to my parents with her to save some money. In the lead up to moving back I was having issues with her going back in her cage and her flying over to and attacking people without warning (my mum was the worst instance).

When we moved home mum and rosie built up their friendship and they're on much happier terms now. she still had aggressive moments towards each of us on occasion but that's bearable!

One big difference from each home is that in the flat she was alone in the day time whilst I was at work. At my parents there are people home all day to keep her company.

6 months after we moved back, I bought a flat with my boyfriend. I moved in and was living half there and half at my parents to be able to see rosie regularly whilst we did some significant damp work which was toxic. This situation has ended up rolling over until now, due to waiting for walls to dry for painting, and other reasons and events that have cropped up and it's made sense to wait until now!

Over this time rosie has become more and more aggressive every time I visit. Which I feel is a combination of her being angry for me abandoning her, and she doesn't get as much time out with my parents and they also let her do whatever she wants so I feel like she's developed bad habits. E.g. Biting when she is told she can't have something or when she doesn't want to step up or go in her cage.

Examples of the point it's at now are: when I come home, and walk over to her cage and say hello, her whole body language reads super aggressive. It's not territorial as she's not like it with anyone else, just me. I'll talk calmly to her, and she remains angry, but wants me to scratch her. It's like she's conflicted whether she hates or loves me! So I'll attempt some head scratches through the bars, she squishes her head right up to it so i can reach her so she clearly wants it, then she can't help herself after a while and has to bite a chunk out of my finger. So I'll stop even though she asks for more. I'll leave her to calm down for a bit and then her aggression calms.

Once I get her out of her cage she starts off initially a bit angry. Says "cuddle!" which normally means "scratch my head", but when I do she goes mad and attacks my hands. so I just leave her settle.

Then we have another biting battle when I ask her to step up. She starts getting ragey and tapping her beak on the table/wherever she's standing. Then she'll chomp down and twist, removing chunks out of my hands. I try so so hard not to react, calmly saying no or gently. If she really won't stop I show her treats and keep trying until she steps up and give her a pine nut when she finally does but it takes a while and my fingers are in tatters!

Then we'll go and chill out in my room upstairs just us 2 (we have a cat downstairs so for rosie to be out for long periods of time she needs to be in a separate room, as the cat doesn't like to be shut in a room for longer than a couple of hours). If I'm in the room with anyone else, she'll prefer to go to one of them than to me. But when we're alone together she's perfectly clam and happy. We'll have a play, make some toys, have a cuddle, she'll give me kisses etc. She'll chill on her perch and chew her willow. Those are the times I'm holding on to at the moment!!!! Then when it's time to go to bed/cage the whole hand attacking cycle starts over again.

She hates going in her cage. I think she associates it with being left alone in the day time. So i think resents me whenever I ask her to go in. I do spend HOURS making toys for her to keep her entertained whilst in there. (was going to do another post with some of those in after this haha).

I was house sitting for my parents for a month over July /August, so it was just me and rosie (and the occasional visitor) during that time. When i was at home day after day and was able to build up trust she was so much better. But then when I had to go to work, she'd be angry again when I came back.

I'm so deeply upset that my little baby does not like me any more, I pretty much cry every time! I feel like I've failed her, and that I'm a bad owner. And it makes me wonder whether she'd be happier elsewhere? :(

I'm bringing her home at the end of September. I'm house sitting for my parents for a week so I'm waiting until after that. I'm getting really stressed about bringing her home. I'm worried that she's going to hate it and hate me and potentially my boyfriend. I don't really know how to get her back to her not seeing me as some kind of threat/something she dislikes. And I feel guilty that she'll now be used to people around her every day, and she won't get that at the flat.

Any help and advice on how to handle or train her would be much appreciated. How to train myself in these situations! How to make the transition to the new place? And advice on introducing partners to living with birds and being patient if she is a nightmare?!?

Thank you so much for taking the time to read this ridiculous brain dump. And thank you for any thoughts.

Jess x

P.s. These are bites from yesterday. She's only tiny. I have no idea how people with bigger birds handle biting!

DSC_2837.JPGDSC_2798.JPGDSC_2793.JPG

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
 
Aaaawww bless you first of all its ok to get it all off your chest we have all been there at some point. xx Huge hugs to you.
I think if you re-read your post you did rather nail it ...company all day long being allowed to do whatever she wants and call the shots with your mum probably a tad spoiled too (parents have a tendency to do that to their "grandkids" :) )
I think our Roz will be a great person to tag in with she will have lots of help she can offer she has a great way of explaining things so that we can understand stuff. @Roz
And there's loads of others here that will be able to offer help, above all else ...... your not alone and we do understand :besos:
Routine is the key in my household they all know what event should happen next in which sequence, the when i go to work big fuss, when i come home huge fuss, greys come out before ammies and who gets covered first on a night time with which cover (and heaven help me if i get the wrong cover on the wrong cage!)
She doesn't hate you. Probably is more than likely rather confused at all the moves and the new partner in your life, strangers (your parents) who she got to like and boss around, there's a lot been going on for her in the last couple of months and as we can't explain things to our feathered friends like its only for a short time its for this reason or that its bound to make them sit there and think WTF!
@Barlachee may also be able to give you lots of help with clicker training too.
 
Hi JessieRose bless i can understand why your up set , maybe you can build her trust up again when you spend that week with her .Rosie can't understand maybe why she is there and only seeing you when you visit then going again now you are spending half and half with her .When Scooby used to bite me touch wood he hasn't done in a long time now i just turn and say in a stern voice Oi No Beeky this he seems to understand rather than don't bite rofl but it works .Don't feel embarrassed JessieRose about this post as everyone is here and happy to advise you hunni , I'm sure someone will be along shortly to advise you JessieRose ((( Hugs )))

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
 
Hi Jess big hugs :besos: you haven't failed, and I can relate to you being upset....my Charlie used to upset me when he was naughty.
As DizzyBlue says you will be able to get things on a more even keel and with some routine and training I'm sure Rosie will settle down again.
Birds like toddlers will push the boundaries!
 
I am so sorry to hear what has happened and understand how upsetting it is. And No you have not failed her at all.
It is now a case of finding the best way to go forward. I am sure those who have dealt with this before will be along with good advice.
And, I am so pleased you came on here and shared this with us as we all learn from each other x
 
bless you hun stop beating yourself up and I can understand how upsetting this is xx I think things will calm down when you get her back in your flat and can get back into a routine with her, is she biting when you ask her to step up? have you tried target training? also keep scratching sessions small so scratch her and then give her a treat maybe to build up positive associations don't scratch her until she bites if you see what im saying if she is asking do it but then stop after a short time, you need positive reinforcement of behaviour you want and like and to ignore the undesired behaviour
 
Thank you so much for your replies. Thank you for being so kind and understanding. It means so much to have people that understand! If I expressed how much it was getting to me to friends, they wouldn't quite grasp it! :)
You're all absolutely right (as always!) I need to establish a good routine when we get home. When I was house sitting before it was going quite well, id get her out in the morning and she'd go back in happily with her breakfast, then out most of the evening, and grumpily go back in in the evening!
She used to be fabulous at trick training which I think was a good bonding experience, but when she refuses to go back to her cage at night I have to limit how much she eats out of the cage so she's motivated to go in for treats!
I need to try and keep calm I think. I'm quite sensitive and can get overwhelmed and panic! she can probably sense that on me to be honest.
And yes, @Shirley , if I say NO! to rosie she'll get more worked up and bite harder, if I say "gently..." in a low voice she backs off a bit. Strange!
Thank you for tagging people, I really appreciate it!

xxx
 
Lou said:
bless you hun stop beating yourself up and I can understand how upsetting this is xx I think things will calm down when you get her back in your flat and can get back into a routine with her, is she biting when you ask her to step up? have you tried target training? also keep scratching sessions small so scratch her and then give her a treat maybe to build up positive associations don't scratch her until she bites if you see what im saying if she is asking do it but then stop after a short time, you need positive reinforcement of behaviour you want and like and to ignore the undesired behaviour
Click to expand...

Thank you for the scratching tip! will make sure I tell mum and dad this too.

I don't do target training as such, but say "come here" and tap a spot. when she's in a good mood she'll do it. It's the only way I can get her in the cage. I get her to step up on a perch on the door and she gets treats and I close her in. if I put my hand in the cage she just runs away up my arm!
Yes she is biting when I ask her to step up , but only when she knows it's something she doesn't want to do. e.g. if she's trying to steal food she shouldn't have I'll ask her to step up so I can take her away and she'll attack. or when she know's I'm about to put her away in the evening, she'll attack my finger. Or if she's on the floor and is getting close to feet I'll ask her to step up to get her out of the way and she bites. As much as it's frustrating for me, it's not allowing me to keep her safe if she is in a mood which I find really stressful.
 
Last edited:
This was us playing tug of war with a bottle top last night when she was in a good mood, so there's definitely good moments!
(this isn't a regular game I was just being silly and snapped it!)

IMG_20160825_194832.jpg

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
 
JessieRose Scooby used to bite me every time i went away and left him but yet he was so excited to see me he'd whistle sing dance , then i would go to head scratche then bang he bit me and he used to pressure bite and us lower beek to grind touch wood he didn't do this the last time come to think of it hmm. Scooby is a bug bug at going back in his cage hmm now correct me if I'm wrong but I'm tinny the cage is taller than me ok so i brought my step in stood on it and the shock on Scooby was brilliant he must of thought oh oh she is near enough taller i best step up haha that only worked a few times but can't help feeling this is part of my problem getting Scooby to step up.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
 
Scooby's behaviour sounds very similar to Rosie! overexcited rage. So THAT's the term, pressure bite!!! haha. It's definitely hard not to make noise when that happens. How on earth did you cope with that sized beak?!?!?!?!
That's interesting about the height! I'm 5ft 7ish and slightly taller than her current cage, but definitely taller than the entrance door. Her new set up at the flat is a corner cage mounted onto the wall so it will be higher, I hope that doesn't cause an issue! I do have a big poof right next to it which I can stand on though! Will have to see what happens!
 
Haha JessieRose i tried so hard not to shout ouch but that is a little hard to do when he pressure bites me and blood going every where and he won't let go ether so while I'm in between the ouches i try very hard to district Scooby with anything my spare hand can grab at the time , touch wood he's not done this in a very long time .

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
 
It definitely gives me more confidence knowing you and Scooby have gotten through it! I'm touching wood for you too! haha :thumbsup:
 
Aww sorry to hear you've been through some tough times. I'm sure things will settle once you have her settled into your own routine.
 
Aww bless JessieRose like all have stated once you get her to yourself and routine I'm sure everything will settle down for you all .Scooby has never bitten Radar Tom but there again Tom leaves me to Scooby in hope that he tolerates me enough to not bite and do as he told now come on he is a male rofl .I'm able to hold him dance round the room , he even gives me kisses with a beek pushed in my mouth haha , funny

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
 
Don't have any advice sadly but I hope you are able to work things through with little Rosie. Small birds can give a very painful bite, more so than several larger species.
 
Sorry to hear you are having a really tough time with Rosie, Jessie. I think it is easier if I take your first post and make comments throughout. :) So here goes in this light blue. I'm going to take out any emotion attached as it tends to cloud what is going on and just talk about the behaviour presented. Also written too much to fit in one post so spreading it over two...

Examples of the point it's at now are: when I come home, and walk over to her cage and say hello, her whole body language reads super aggressive.
Ok so don't immediately walk over to her cage if it is cue-ing aggressive behaviour. It could be you walking straight towards her at a certain speed that maybe she finds slightly threatening, it could be the eye contact, especially since you are not there all the time. You know how cats make a beeline for people who are allergic or don't like cats? Try the same thing - ignore her to start with. You could get closer by walking past her cage slowly to get something else. Then get progressively closer.

It's not territorial as she's not like it with anyone else, just me. I'll talk calmly to her, and she remains angry, but wants me to scratch her. It's like she's conflicted whether she hates or loves me! So I'll attempt some head scratches through the bars, she squishes her head right up to it so i can reach her so she clearly wants it, then she can't help herself after a while and has to bite a chunk out of my finger.
At the moment no head scratches if it ends in a bite. Or as Lou suggested, give her a head scratch but stop way short of the expected bite. You might start by scratching her for 3 seconds. Leave her wanting more. This is how I taught Kobe to stop biting through the bars of the cage as he used to do the same. Then over the weeks, months make the sessions slightly longer. 4 seconds, 5 seconds, etc. If you leave her wanting more each time, one, you are getting her out of this bad habit and two, you are pairing yourself with a good thing (the lovely head scratch before it all goes wrong).

Once I get her out of her cage she starts off initially a bit angry. Says "cuddle!" which normally means "scratch my head", but when I do she goes mad and attacks my hands. so I just leave her settle.
Good - leave her to settle. No more saying cuddle as it sounds like the cue has been "poisoned". Later you can make up another cue for scratching her head. It's like I poisoned the cue "step up" for Kobe many years ago. It just got him mad so I never use those words again... or I could desensitise him to those words and begin pairing them with good things.

Then we have another biting battle when I ask her to step up. She starts getting ragey and tapping her beak on the table/wherever she's standing. Then she'll chomp down and twist, removing chunks out of my hands. I try so so hard not to react, calmly saying no or gently.
I would definitely train her to step up onto a hand held perch instead of your hand for "emergencies". You can't let her keep biting your hands... this is a horrible habit she is learning. If she is showing you all this aggressive body language, it is NOT the time to ask her to step up. Wait until she is calmer. You may have to break the step up down into smaller increments.

When she is calm enough to work with your hand, have her look at your hand - treat! She turns her body towards your hand - treat! She takes one step closer - treat! She takes another step closer - treat! She puts one foot on your hand - treat! Two feet on your hand - treat! Then put her down again so that she is in control (more reinforcement). Or if you think she is ok, walk with her some place nice (again reinforcement if she likes the place/experience).

If she really won't stop I show her treats and keep trying until she steps up and give her a pine nut when she finally does but it takes a while and my fingers are in tatters!
Can you see what you are inadvertently training here? She bites hard and you show her treats? You are reinforcing the biting. Try the shaping I showed you above in those tiny increments. This way she is earning lots of reinforcers for stepping up. She'll be too busy eating to think of biting.

Another way to get her to step up is try cue-ing some other behaviours she knows first, like targeting, then ask her to step up. Make it fast-ish - this gets the momentum going. Target here - treat; target there - treat; target here - treat; step up - treat!
 
Then we'll go and chill out in my room upstairs just us 2 (we have a cat downstairs so for rosie to be out for long periods of time she needs to be in a separate room, as the cat doesn't like to be shut in a room for longer than a couple of hours). If I'm in the room with anyone else, she'll prefer to go to one of them than to me. But when we're alone together she's perfectly clam and happy. We'll have a play, make some toys, have a cuddle, she'll give me kisses etc. She'll chill on her perch and chew her willow. Those are the times I'm holding on to at the moment!!!!
Sounds like she's ok away from the vicinity of her cage. Many birds are the same.

Then when it's time to go to bed/cage the whole hand attacking cycle starts over again.
Being out of the cage is more reinforcing than going back in. Make sure going back in is fun! That there are loads of reinforcers. Give her a treat for stepping down into her cage. Does she like you talking to her at this point? If so spent some time talking to her and feeding pieces of treat through the cage bars. Make it fun for her. Kobe loves going to bed now as he gets one on one attention. Pieces of almonds, and skritches and laughter... all are reinforcing to him. It means bed time = happy time.

She hates going in her cage. I think she associates it with being left alone in the day time. So i think resents me whenever I ask her to go in. I do spend HOURS making toys for her to keep her entertained whilst in there. (was going to do another post with some of those in after this haha).
That's great you make her loads of toys. Notice which toys does she especially likes and perhaps have one of those ready for her for going into her cage. Maybe change some of the toys once a day so she doesn't get bored. I keep boxes of toys at the ready so I can rotate them in. Many birds like foot toys - maybe fill an empty food bowl with foot toys - like the bottle lid in that fabulous photo, willow sticks, pieces of wood, etc. This is easy to add to every day .

I was house sitting for my parents for a month over July /August, so it was just me and rosie (and the occasional visitor) during that time. When i was at home day after day and was able to build up trust she was so much better. But then when I had to go to work, she'd be angry again when I came back.
Excellent! It will be like that again when Rosie comes to live with you permanently. There is no need to show aggressive body language to you if you keep on pairing yourself with awesome things and awesome experiences. Take her by surprise when you come home... put on some loud music and dance around... be silly.

I'm so deeply upset that my little baby does not like me any more, I pretty much cry every time! I feel like I've failed her, and that I'm a bad owner. And it makes me wonder whether she'd be happier elsewhere?
clear.png

She doesn't not like you - you wouldn't be able to play with her at all if that were true. :) Remember these are your human thoughts. Rosie is reacting to whatever is going on in the environment. Keep pairing yourself with good things! Kobe used to puff up and give me the evil eye especially around "hormonal" times. The worst thing I could have done would be to get angry or upset with him (and yes I used to). I changed it around and ignored the aggressive body language - he soon calmed down then I was quick to reinforce any good behaviour he gave me. Sometimes when I let him out of the cage he's still puffed. That's body language to me saying "don't touch me" which is fine, so I swing the door open only glancing at him (eye contact at these times can send him flying to attack) and calmly walk away. A few minutes later he'll follow and all is well. And yes, quick - reinforce his good behaviour!

I'm bringing her home at the end of September. I'm house sitting for my parents for a week so I'm waiting until after that. I'm getting really stressed about bringing her home. I'm worried that she's going to hate it and hate me and potentially my boyfriend. I don't really know how to get her back to her not seeing me as some kind of threat/something she dislikes. And I feel guilty that she'll now be used to people around her every day, and she won't get that at the flat.
No need to get stressed about bringing her home. It will work out because you want it to work out. Ignore her if she's showing aggressive body language. She'll come to you when she's ready. Tell your boyfriend to ignore her too and be careful of steady eye contact. She sounds very like Kobe in some ways. Kobe's fine now. Get back to target training and other training. You are right - it does build a good relationship between you. Don't forget to reinforce good behaviour... we humans get upset about the bad and often forget to reinforce when all is going well.

... if I say NO! to rosie she'll get more worked up and bite harder, if I say "gently..." in a low voice she backs off a bit. Strange!
Not at all ;) Aggression (ie NO! and your body language) triggers more aggression. But your low voice is not threatening. She doesn't know what you are saying, she is reacting to the tone/loudness of your voice and your body language.

Biting is a form of communication. It's an extreme or last resort form used when other body language has been ignored. Yes, it is difficult when you want her to step up and she says, "no" (maybe puffing, widening eyes, leaning away and when these are ignored, biting) so you need to think outside the box. Make stepping up a wonderful experience for her so that she will want to repeat it in the future. Teach her that stepping up doesn't necessarily mean going straight back in the cage. Take her to look out of the window or simply put her down again. And if she does have to go back into the cage, make that a good experience. You can win Rosie over! :thumbsup:
 
Roz I cannot thank you enough for such an amazing in depth reply to my post. I am so so grateful that you've taken the time to go through it all with a fine toothed comb and give me such specific points and tips. All so wonderfully explained. Every single word makes perfect sense and I completely agree with. It's given me lots of confidence in how to move forward. I will be implementing and actioning all these points and forwarding this to my parents and boyfriend too so we can all start working together!

That's really interesting about the "poisoned" cue! It makes total sense. I can see step up is poisoned as well as cuddle. May I ask what did you change it to for kobe?

As for reinforcers going back into her cage, she does enjoy being talked to through whilst in her cage, but she climbs on the bars like she's asking to come back out. Or she asks for cuddles. We give her her favourite treats through the bars but if she's had food whilst out or is in a mood she'll ignore the treats. I really really want her to enjoy her cage as it's where she spends a lot of time. When i was house sitting at mum's and we were spending a few days solidly together she was going in and out on her own. Which is the first time she's really done that, so it will hopefully improve!!


I do exactly that with the box of foot toys in her cage :) loads of bottle tops and hits of wood and wooden beads and balls which end up on the floor of the cage by the end of the day. I will definitely do the box of toys and do more swapping. She's not really into chewing/destroying which is the thing I would wish she would do to pass the time. She's only just started to get into willow branches so I'm hoping it develops from there. I'm trying to do foraging toys but she seems bored of them.

I will definitely do some more training. When I get her home and get her into the routine I'll be able to do a training time slot before she's out for the evening. And I'll try and get the parents to do some touch training whilst in her cage in the day time.

I feel so much more positive now I have a plan to follow. I was feeling really lost before. I can't wait to get to it!

Thank you so much roz. And thanks to everyone's replies and support. And to the forum! Life saving as always.

Thank you :)

I will update with progress!

Jessie and Rosie

Xxx


Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
 
Really happy you are feeling more positive now, Jessie! :aplastao: I think too it will be better when she is home with you and into a routine of regularly seeing you... i.e. you don't have to keep reintroducing yourself. You can also practice putting her into her cage without shutting the door. That way she can come right back out again. This way she'll learn going in doesn't necessarily mean the door will close after her. She'll relax more about it.

Reinforcement needn't always be a treat. Try playing with Rosie through the bars... have a tug of war with a willow stick since she is beginning to like those. I do "this little piggy" with Kobe... when he's hanging onto the side of the cage. I tickle his tummy and say "this little piggy went wee wee weee weee all the way home". He loves this game... he slides down the bars slowly as I tickle him, struts off to the other side with tail spread, climbs up and comes over for another go. If I'm not paying attention to him he'll say "weee!" to remind me to play. This game is reinforcing to Kobe. It looked like holding onto that bottle top with it half in your mouth was reinforcing to Rosie. Does Rosie say anything? Even me saying "huh!" is reinforcing to Kobe... he will look at me and repeat it. I know I can use that sound to diffuse aggression and reinforce his calm body language. All these things can be used to reinforce "desired" behaviour.

The poisoned cue... I just ask Kobe if he wants to come with me instead of step up and often I say nothing. There is no real need for a verbal cue since a presented hand as a visual cue says it all. :thumbsup: Just remembered there's another phrase I can't say with Kobe - he just shouts it back at me like he used to with "step up": it's, "do you want a little skritch?" :pancarta: Can't remember how this one went so wrong, but if he puts his head down then I skritch him... no words necessary. :D The Amazons aren't this difficult! It was because of Kobe I had to go learn about behaviour. :rolleyes:

Go Jessie and Rosie, looking forward to hearing of your progress! Very exciting - just a month away from Rosie coming home! :ura:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom