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My Parrot Acting Funny

Discussion in 'Parrot Chatter' started by darren west, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. CaptainHowdy

    CaptainHowdy Regular Member

    African greys are now are a Cites listed bird. Unless no money exchanged hands at all and you were given the correct cites gifting paperwork signed by both parties then yes you have illegally purchased this bird.

    It can be confusing but ignore the commercial part here. Any baby African grey purchased since the order came in would need to have paperwork. Bow obviously if you've already owned your bird for 10 years beforehand then you do not require any paperwork unless you intend to breed or sell your grey.

    Anyone purchasing a grey since the order came in must make sure the bird has been registered before they purchase it. As you bought the cage and toys then yes you have been tricked and you have in fact purchase the bird itself.

    DEFRA are not the correct department to be dealing with here. And I would advise contacting cites themselves by phone and explain the situation.

    No one is saying they are going to take the bird off you. However you are much better off being honest and ask them for help in getting your little one registered not only for now but for the future so you can prove you got the situation sorted and your bird is now legal.
    No one knows what they are going to do in the future but at least if you already have the paperwork and have him registered then you don't need to worry about doing it later on.
    however should you ever decide to sell you will need to register your grey beforehand.
     
  2. darren west

    darren west Banned

    if the above person is not cites then how do i contact them directly ?
    and why has the person above signed the email the way he has
    its very confusing .
    i know it seems like im trying to pick a fight but this is not the case
    im trying to find something on a official site that states what i have done is wrong and a way to put it right
    the lady i got him from has loads of rescue parrots and she has always charged for the gage and toys for which she gave me the receipts which does come to the same amount as i paid her , and the parrot is totally free . i was 1 of 6 people who wanted him but apparently she chose me as i pestered her with so many questions , we had to drive for 200 miles to collect him but only after we spend a couple of hours with the bird before we left .
     
  3. darren west

    darren west Banned

    but its the commercial part that im arguing , i can't see how i have been tricked i have paid 250 for the cage and toys and a 20kg of food for him , she gave me the pets at home receipts totalling this amount and i was given the bird for free and i have a receipt from her stating that the rescue parrot was given freely
     
  4. Kendra

    Kendra Regular Member

    Gosh this has become complicated, if you find a way of calming your pesky little chap please, please, please let me know @darren west. Dusky protects his drawers, items in his drawers, his cage, MY coffee table, MY vinyl on the floor, MY doors, door frames, all of which he shows his love by chewing into bits. I do not own anything in the house now, it all belongs to Dusky.
     
    Lisa7284 likes this.
  5. DizzyBlue

    DizzyBlue Administrator Staff Member Admin

    Thanks Amelia @CaptainHowdy your always better at explain stuff than I am clear and concise as ever :) I always get into supply of information side waaaaaaaay too deeply but that's what happens to me hey ho
     
    CaptainHowdy likes this.
  6. darren west

    darren west Banned

    I have sent a email directly to cites.org as they seem to not be based in this country
    Hopefully they can give me a definite answer.
    Unless anyone here has a better contact line for them.
     
  7. dianaT

    dianaT Moderator Staff Member Moderator

  8. darren west

    darren west Banned

    Thanks for the links.
    Looking at the second one on the cites.org page it gives this contact address.

    Elaine Kendall
    Head of CITES Policy team
    Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra)
    Natural Environment Policy
    Floor 2
    Horizon House
    Deanery Road,
    BRISTOL BS1 5AH
    Email: cites.ukma @ defra.gsi.gov.uk

    Yet these are the people I emailed who told me I don’t need any paperwork.

    I have DizzyBlue telling me that these are not the correct people as they are Defra and not cites yet this is the details on the cites web site.
    It’s a bloody minefield.
    And the first link you have posted states commercial. Where as I am not a commercial trader.
     
  9. darren west

    darren west Banned

    So I have just called Keith Wallace who has confirmed heroes indeed work for cites but also works with the government . He is the guy in the uk who issues cites paperwork

    He has stated that unless I want to breed from him or show him commercially I do not need to have him micro chipped nor do I need any cites paperwork .
    It was handy actually as he knows the lady I got the parrot from as she has also contacted him recently about this due to me asking her for help .
    So he is aware that I paid for a cage and items and as he said as long as I have the shop receipts for these items then this proves that all I have paid for is a cage. And I have not brought the bird as part of a deal with the cage .
    Now I have got this on another email also so as far as I am concerned and also Defra and cites I have done nothing wrong and I legally own the bird . So please stop telling my that I have got it illegally .
     
  10. TomsMum

    TomsMum Administrator Staff Member Admin

    Yes it is a minefield...because DEFRA/APHA/the CITES team...who have their office in Deanery Road Bristol are not providing a joined up answer, and depending on who you are, how you describe the situation when you call, and who is on the other end of the phone or email...then you get different answers...and not just relating to CITES......I called about some non-secured chickens when the avian flu restrictions regulations were in force, to be told it wasn’t really a problem! Doh, then why have restrictions in place then?

    Like most government departments they just want to get rid of you, and involve themselves in as little work as possible so it would seem.

    This forum views the International guidance as it is written...commercial includes the payment of monies, that’s how it is interpreted with other species under CITES so why would it be different for African Greys. I recently advised an auction house regarding a taxidermy specimen of a CAG, and they were told by same said office in Bristol that it required and Article 10 certificate to be sold, even though was a specimen of Victorian age, similar thing happened with a piano (Ivory Keys), and on TV yesterdayin one of the antique shows, withdrawal an item made from Rosewood until age can be determined and certificate obtained.

    It’s not our fault you are being told different things, we are sticking by the Advice we have always given out regarding CITES 1 specimens...and I personally work on the adage of if there is any doubt get the paperwork, then no one can come along at a later date and tell you that you should’ve had it, or invoke penalties on you for not abiding by the law.
     
  11. TomsMum

    TomsMum Administrator Staff Member Admin

    You just posted as I was....fine if that’s what they’ve told you.

    I think they need to put there money where their mouths are so to speak, and publish guidance notes on their website.

    my personal opinion is that if this is really there official stance then they are not supporting CITES in the manner in which it is meant to be implemented, because smuggled birds will still get into this country and be traded on....that’s what getting CAGs and TAGs moved from CITES II to CITES I classification was all about. Off to write to the World Parrot Trust me thinks!
     
  12. darren west

    darren west Banned

    I’m unsure where the argument is here. They have said because I have actual shop receipts for the amount I gave her then this alone is enough to prove that the bird was not a part of the money changing hands process. And this along with the receipt for the bird stating that it was given freely is adequate.
    He said if I wanted to I could get the lady to fill out a gifting certificate for the bird. But it’s not necessary due to the documentation I already have in place . And I have now also got this in a email that has just come through as he promised me.
    Now this is an official cites headed email
    So as far as I’m concerned all is perfectly ok with how I obtained my parrot.
     
  13. darren west

    darren west Banned

    So me being thick here. What about how I got jack do you feel is wrong. I was freely given him . I did not pay money for the bird at all. I only reimbursed the lady for the items she had purchased for jack. She said the reason she does it this way is so that the bird has a familiar surroundings when he/her goes to their forever home. I have a receipt for jack stating I was given the bird freely and with out charge. There is nothing online or any other place that states I can not be given the bird freely. So all is perfectly good. Now if the deal was I paid for the cage and bird this would be a total different ball game.
     
  14. dianaT

    dianaT Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Well I am pleased you had the answer and on headed paper too, that is your proof you have enquired and that is the answer you were given.
    It would be helpful if these organisations got their act together and left hand knew what right hand was doing, so to speak.
    Perhaps it would be a good idea to go get your bird microchipped, which is always a wise thing to do. That will be in your name. You can then keep all documentation together. And in my opinion that would be the end of it. Jack is with you in his new forever home.
     
    Lisa7284 likes this.
  15. Parrot797

    Parrot797 Regular Member

    Good luck if this ever goes to court!
     
    CaptainHowdy likes this.
  16. TomsMum

    TomsMum Administrator Staff Member Admin

    Just reading back through and I note
    “gave them a link to this forum page including my username and password incase they needed them to view the thread. The above was received this morning ”

    I trust your user credentials aren’t ones you use elsewhere...and totally unnecessary to do as most sections of forum are public viewable without logging in!

    You’ll need to use the contact us link at the very bottom of the forum screen, to arrange a password change
     
  17. Heather2131

    Heather2131 Regular Member

    I don't understand the issue here, in my opinion, that I'm sure some people may not agree with... Why does anyone need to know you exchanged money for the cage from her?

    The bird was gifted along with all it's things, end of. If that's the law now I'm sure many people are gifting birds and still exchanging money, it's fair enough to give some money to help with the expense of the cages and everything imo.

    Could a court prove money was handed over?
    Personally if the bird was gifted and all done properly I don't see why money for the cage need be mentioned.
     
    Lisa7284 likes this.
  18. TomsMum

    TomsMum Administrator Staff Member Admin

    DIzzyBlue is trying to get the CITES people at APHA Leeds to speak with the APHA Bristol Office to sort out why they are giving out information that is at difference with the CITES international regulations!
     
    CaptainHowdy likes this.
  19. TomsMum

    TomsMum Administrator Staff Member Admin

    cos The regulations say


    “14. Gifts and donations

    You do not need a certificate if you want to give your specimens away, or use or display

    them for non-commercial purposes. However, if the transaction involves some type of

    exchange or other benefit in kind, including some charitable donations (see below), we treat

    this as a commercial transaction so you will need a certificate.

    The person receiving the gift will also need a certificate to use the specimen for commercial

    purposes if he or she plans to use it for commercial gain. Other EU countries may also not

    be prepared to allow a specimen to be sold that has previously been given away, particularly

    if there is not enough information about how it was received in the first place.


    Anyone who receives a specimen as a gift should ask the person who gave it to them for

    details of:

     the origin of the specimen,

     acquisition details,

     references to any previous certificates/permits or other documentation including

    non-CITES paperwork to demonstrate legal origin and previous ownership.

     their contact details.

    We may need to check this information if the new owner applies for a certificate.”
     
    CaptainHowdy likes this.
  20. dianaT

    dianaT Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Now now Darren please, people on here have done their best to help, and can only do so by the knowledge we have gained and inform you of that and of what is involved in the Cites Article 10 regulation. It is up to you whether you agree or disagree, and if you are happy with the headed letter containing the information you have received so be it.
    But please do not be rude to others on here, we all try our best to help each other, that is all we can do and advise.