Frustration! I need some advise and encouragements here.

ellaC

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I need some advise and encouragements here. Sorry for the long post ahead.

My tiel, a female named Snow, is one that we found on a walk and willingly follow us home. She is obviously a pet that has escaped or abandoned and cannot find food for herself. We didn't bring her to a vet as she is eating and coping well. That was 2 years ago when I am still living with my ex.

He is the main caretaker for Snow as he work from home 3-4 days a week. I will try to interact with her after work and during weekends.

She is selectively aggressive towards me, she doesn't willingly step up and I need multiple tries. We let her out for 2-3hrs before he start working. It's the same routine for weekends. Only when he is not around during playtime, e.g he goes out to get breakfast, will she come to me - land on my head or flock call me.

If she is in good mood, I can scratch her, else she will be opening her beaks at me or warn whenever my hand is close.
I think I built up some trust during the time he was send to work overseas for 3 days and I managed to get few days off (it's lucky I have leave to clear). During that 3 days, I managed to get close to her. She willingly fly to me, step up and preen on me. She even asked for scratches and naps on me. I spent a lot more time with her outside her playtime by allowing her out of cage to watch TV with me.

When my ex was back, everything was back to normal. The friendly Snow (towards me) only lasted for 2 months (or 3months?) before she is back to being aggressive towards me. i feel she got even worst than before. It just happen I am required me to Ot a lot more and even on alternate Saturdays, covering for colleague who was hospitalised. I spent much lesser time with her.

Fast forward to 4 months ago, boyfriend and I broke up. It's not the kind of dramatic one, so we're not screaming at each other daily in front of Snow. But the atmosphere did get weird but I am not sure if Snow picked it up. Ex soon moved to work in another city.

Snow stayed with me. I struggle to handle her. My working hours is kind of 'flexible', as long as I work 7-8hrs between 9 to 6 and meet my dateline. So I opted to start later to clean her cage and feed her before work.

She is still that selective aggressive towards me. I did lose patience with her especially when she is not cooperative when I am running late. I tried to lure her out with food but it doesn't always work. So i ended up forcing her to step up multiple times. I know it's a big no-no to grab her so I never did that. She eventually stepped up after biting and warning me but I won't budge. She was doing her full wing spread when on my hand then flies in circles before landing on her play perch. Sometimes she scream when she landed. (Can anyone explain this behaviour? Never seen her doing that with my ex. She still doing this occasionally)

I try to give her an hour outside of the cage daily, and then more when I get back home from work after 6. I tired to talk to her and spend time trying to engage her with toys and snacks. She only comes to me for snacks. She sometimes make this soft flock-call like sound while eating, which puzzles me if she meant it as a warning to back off or is she happy?

Occasionally, she gets aggressive even when my finger get close to her cage, except when there is snacks on it.

During the weekends, I can take things slow. I let her out for at least 2hrs and we eat breakfast together sometimes, salad, plain cereal or bread. She does enjoy that but is still aggressive and kind of wary and jumpy. I feel like we're doing cha-cha - forward today then backwards another. I really wish to be able to handle her more easily - scratch her and get her to step up and be move into and out of cage easier.

In frustration, I texted my ex for advice and he told me to ignore her. If she doesn't react positively to interactions, then no interaction till I am free to entertain her. If she doesn't want to get out of cage, just change the seeds and water and the poop tray. No out of cage time till I am back from work. If she doesn't want to go back to her cage then leave her outside and close all doors and windows with food and drinks.

I have tried ignoring and no out of cage time, it kind of worked but she will scream randomly for attention and to get out. I just ignore as per instructed. I don't feel any improvement though. In fact I get feedback from a neighbour that she is screaming a tiny bit too much when I am not home. And she does gets more aggressive when I get home sometimes, more screaming and biting.

I am planning to send her for bird boarding before deciding on what to do next. If things doesn't improve, I might have to give her away.
Does anyone have any advices? Thanks




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Hi and welcome to the forum
There is hope for you and snow you just need to rebond is all :)
You need our Roz and to go back to basics and start to form the bonding again.
You'll get there it just takes some time and patience so as long as your willing to provide that then you will get there in the end its just a matter of time. Hmmm unless another BF comes in to play and he spoils her rotten and you only get to do the other stuff that she finds not so much fun. They do tend to go to the person that provides the greatest amount of treats and amusement I have 12 of them myself but mine are aviary birds. They still interact with me but prefer their own company unless I walk in with a shed load of treats then I look like a cockatiel tree!

Right going to tag our Roz she's a fully qualified parrot trainer she's awesome @Roz
 
Oh in the meantime this is a brilliant thread to read by Roz
 
Oooo the other person I am going to tag in is Wera she brilliant too she has two ringnecks who are lets just say very selective as to who is their "chosen one" which now seems to be switching a little to her BF.

Remember though above all else you are not alone. :besos:

@Wera
 
Hi @ellaC :welcome: Thank you for giving us a detailed history of Snow.

Rushing right now, but I thought I'd comment on a few things. I'll be back later.

Reading through it sounds like she bonded with your ex which is why she became more aggressive towards you. Now that he has gone, you can absolutely form a new relationship with her! I think it didn't help that you did some things against her wishes (making her step up, etc. and I know you were in a rush for work, but looking at it from Snow's point of view), which taught her more aggressive responses/lack of trust.

First you need to stop the aggressive responses, because the more she uses them, the more deeply ingrained they become. So this means reading her body language carefully and trying not to do anything that makes her lunge, open her beak or bite. That's wonderful that she will take treats from you! Brilliant because treats/food are a primary reinforcer (unlearned), plus you giving her treats pairs your presence with favourable outcomes. The more that happens regularly the more trust is formed. So really try to make time to give her a treat for stepping up etc. If stepping up on your finger is difficult, try your hand or arm or perhaps a hand held perch similar in looks to one in her cage. I sometimes use a folded rope perch for one of my birds as he has rope perches inside his cage. But watch her body language and do your best not to force her. Forcing a bird to do something against their will LOSES trust.

Why not try a new way of interacting with her? Some target training? You can teach her this inside her cage as well as out. As well as being a wonderful tool for moving a bird around without touching her, it is also forming trust. There is a slight uncertainty as she gets up the courage to touch the target each time, then you come in with a lovely treat! TRUST!! Here is an article I wrote to teach you how:


If you can, she should be able to choose to come out of her cage at least 3 - 4 hours a day split between morning and evening.
 
Yes forming relationship can take long time, we adopted Bluey in July 2021 and she was ok with me, didn’t get one with our other ringneck ( and still doesn’t get on ) and had really short fuse with my boyfriend, often she would lunge at him when he was passing by and she only interacted with him if it was her initiative, in the end of the day we did make some extra perching stations for her around house with toys available and if she was home alone with my boyfriend he mostly would let her be, he would open her cage and let her chose if she wanted to interact with him that’s great if she decided to do something else that was fine too, he used to go to check on her every now and then and leave one of her favourite treats somewhere so she started to associate his presence with positive interactions, then he moved to target training with her but to avoid getting bitten he mostly was placing treat in front of her, only this year around end of February/ beginning of March she suddenly became besties with him, unexpected but very welcome, one day he tried to give her head scratch and she accepted it, I am downgraded now because looks like he is her favourite person
 
Our other girl definitely goes through phases of who she likes more, but there was a phase when she got particularly nasty with me, I mostly tried to not give much reaction to her bad behaviour and try to think step ahead of her to avoid some situations, during this time I wasn’t handling her with my hands but mostly using T perch if I wanted to move her around, target training also helped massively.
How is Snow doing with foraging? We have glass baking dish which I fill mostly with parrot safe dried flowers and I put in there small nut pieces wrapped in paper, it’s useful as I can have one of the girls out of the cage and there is always good chance that instead of dive bombing me she will get busy looking for treats, we also have some small baskets around with various toys bits, plain soft wood ( balsa, sola)and cork bits so often they chose to go and just sit somewhere chewing wood or throwing everything around, also when they are in the cage we rarely serve them seeds in their bowls, we use foraging toys that reduce screaming problem as they are busy working out how to get to their treats
 
Oooo the other person I am going to tag in is Wera she brilliant too she has two ringnecks who are lets just say very selective as to who is their "chosen one" which now seems to be switching a little to her BF.

Remember though above all else you are not alone. :besos:

@Wera
Thank you for tagging the great masters here!
Appreciate that!
12!! You have a lot of birds! LOL.
I am curious, do aviary birds behave different from caged birds?
 
Hi @ellaC :welcome: Thank you for giving us a detailed history of Snow.

Rushing right now, but I thought I'd comment on a few things. I'll be back later.

Reading through it sounds like she bonded with your ex which is why she became more aggressive towards you. Now that he has gone, you can absolutely form a new relationship with her! I think it didn't help that you did some things against her wishes (making her step up, etc. and I know you were in a rush for work, but looking at it from Snow's point of view), which taught her more aggressive responses/lack of trust.

First you need to stop the aggressive responses, because the more she uses them, the more deeply ingrained they become. So this means reading her body language carefully and trying not to do anything that makes her lunge, open her beak or bite. That's wonderful that she will take treats from you! Brilliant because treats/food are a primary reinforcer (unlearned), plus you giving her treats pairs your presence with favourable outcomes. The more that happens regularly the more trust is formed. So really try to make time to give her a treat for stepping up etc. If stepping up on your finger is difficult, try your hand or arm or perhaps a hand held perch similar in looks to one in her cage. I sometimes use a folded rope perch for one of my birds as he has rope perches inside his cage. But watch her body language and do your best not to force her. Forcing a bird to do something against their will LOSES trust.

Why not try a new way of interacting with her? Some target training? You can teach her this inside her cage as well as out. As well as being a wonderful tool for moving a bird around without touching her, it is also forming trust. There is a slight uncertainty as she gets up the courage to touch the target each time, then you come in with a lovely treat! TRUST!! Here is an article I wrote to teach you how:


If you can, she should be able to choose to come out of her cage at least 3 - 4 hours a day split between morning and evening.
Thank you for the suggestion, I will try the perch suggestion when I have the time during weekends. I honestly have problem with giving her time out of the cage if I can't get her back in... I won't have no time during weekday mornings. Is it ok if she gets an hour out of cage time during weekdays but more during weekends? I can only train her during weekends or short session during weekdays. When I get home, sometimes, she is napping already, I cover her by 8 usually (this was her routine sleep time)

Can I ask does it means that things have gotten worst if she doesn't take food from my hand? I usually hold a piece of cookie (her favourite) and slit it into her cage and she will come to eat but just now when I tried, she went for her seeds instead. I waited for a while and she still doesn't respond, so I withdrew the cookie and walked away.
 
Our other girl definitely goes through phases of who she likes more, but there was a phase when she got particularly nasty with me, I mostly tried to not give much reaction to her bad behaviour and try to think step ahead of her to avoid some situations, during this time I wasn’t handling her with my hands but mostly using T perch if I wanted to move her around, target training also helped massively.
How is Snow doing with foraging? We have glass baking dish which I fill mostly with parrot safe dried flowers and I put in there small nut pieces wrapped in paper, it’s useful as I can have one of the girls out of the cage and there is always good chance that instead of dive bombing me she will get busy looking for treats, we also have some small baskets around with various toys bits, plain soft wood ( balsa, sola)and cork bits so often they chose to go and just sit somewhere chewing wood or throwing everything around, also when they are in the cage we rarely serve them seeds in their bowls, we use foraging toys that reduce screaming problem as they are busy working out how to get to their treats

I am not sure how she feels about foraging tbh. But she doesn't respond well to her toys and anything new ... I think there is a part of her cage that she try to avoid because a new toy was placed there almost 3 months ago.

I guess my ex and I did spoilt her - she gets treats like "tea breaks", when my ex have his tea-time, he gave her some bread or cookies he have. During the weekends, I also give her treats a plain cookie she loves while trying to engage her. And now I am giving her treats daily in my desperation to get her to cooperate. She has never really need to look for food except maybe to fish out the sunflower seeds in her seed mix. I don't really want to let her out for too long, my house wasn't that bird safe to be honest, I might look or DIY a foraging toy for her.

But she have kind of stop responding to food in my hand. She doesn't want to eat from my hand. But it's just a one time off event today. I think I need to monitor more, who knows tomorrow she will eat from my hand again. I shall try to train her this weekend.
 
12 is what I have cockatiel wise..... there are also two kakarikis and a budgie and three african greys, a double yellow headed amazon, a blue fronted amazon and a yellow nape .... just need the freaking partridge in a pear tree for the full house :risas3:
that ... is a bird park ... lol
you can consider charging for tickets ... LOL
 
Its a nut house!
You should go for a day out to the place down south I've travelled down there before now ... kind of a busmans holiday as they say... birdie person at a birdie place! They free fly a lot of birds ... well not actually free fly the birds are out and about not wing clipped and if they choose to interact with you they do and if they don't they don't have too :) Long distance for me as I live up in deepest darkest East Yorkshire...

 
Thank you for the suggestion, I will try the perch suggestion when I have the time during weekends. I honestly have problem with giving her time out of the cage if I can't get her back in... I won't have no time during weekday mornings. Is it ok if she gets an hour out of cage time during weekdays but more during weekends? I can only train her during weekends or short session during weekdays. When I get home, sometimes, she is napping already, I cover her by 8 usually (this was her routine sleep time)

Can I ask does it means that things have gotten worst if she doesn't take food from my hand? I usually hold a piece of cookie (her favourite) and slit it into her cage and she will come to eat but just now when I tried, she went for her seeds instead. I waited for a while and she still doesn't respond, so I withdrew the cookie and walked away.
Is she hungry in the mornings? I used to let my then untame and untouchable Amazon, Ollie, out of the cage an hour or so before breakfast. As soon as he saw me slot his breakfast bowl into his cage, he would fly back in himself. I then waited until he had a mouthful of food before gently closing the cage door so that the closing of the door would be paired with something good (the taste of food). It worked so well after a day or two that I had no problem letting him out on a work day. I did make sure there was no food overnight in the cage to give him more incentive to go back in, but I never leave food for any of my birds in the cage overnight anyway. Maybe try this on a weekend.

Since Snow is alone so much during the day, is it possible to gradually make her bedtime a little later so she has some more time to spend with you? She can easily nap through the day.

That's good that you gave her a limited time to decide if she wanted the piece of cookie. Never mind that she preferred to eat her seeds at that particular time - tomorrow may be different. It's a good idea to work on her taking favourite treats from you first before target training, as when training you will need to reinforce her behaviour with the treats... you won't get far if she isn't taking treats. :)
 
I have not disappeared, I just thought to update after trying for a while instead of daily ... because ... well, I feel tiels are Jekyll & Hyde or they just have 365 personalities in their small bodies. And playing with the tiels as the co-caretaker and as the main caretaker is 2 completely different thing!!

@DizzyBlue That looks like a fun place to go... but hmm ... I will have to save a lot a lot of money... Since I am in Asia, Southeast Asia to be more specific! We do have one similar kind of aviary but interactions aren't encouraged without any "bird-keepers". I have been there, it's been fun minus the heat.

@Wendy Cooper-Wolfe I did have her tried green bell peppers (flesh, so not the seeds) ... she is not so much of a fan. She didn't quite like it. Maybe I can let her try the seeds when I get groceries.

@Roz Oh, I do leave food and water overnight in the cage. My bf have never clear her food cup completely, he just blow all the seed shells out as much as possible and add in new ones. So I followed what he did. Water wise I'll throw away and add in new water daily. Anyways, I tried doing that (emptying her food cup at night despite her protesting/warning) and it seems like she is loitering around the food cup a lot more (from outside of the cage) and the food cup is just inside the door so I can just close it once she step on the cup to eat. It's much easier getting her inside. And she stayed quiet with her food till she realised she is inside and starts to scream.

I find it weird that during the morning she seems more friendly, but when I got back from work, she is mainly more moody. So there is this morning when I gave her some cookie while she is on the training perch, she is so happy and even gets a bit close to my hand. She kinda got curious with a small "scar" on my finger and peck it then shuffles back away. I thought, "Wow! Progress!" That night, I went home with much enthusiasm. When to her, she was all fluff up and gave me this side eye as if saying :"you pesty humans!" and when I gave her snacks - "you pesty humans and your pesty snacks! Scram!" She totally didn't want to respond. I guess she was a little tired? So I just cover her after waiting with the snack for a while.

Also I have realised this thing - there are days I just let her out for less than an hour and some days just letting her stand on her food cup with the door opened (she just stretched on her food cup). And she didn't seems to complain as much (less screaming after being locked back in) vs when she was let completely out (flying to her play perch or standing by the windows). Does this means she is one introverted bird who likes to stay home??
 
It sounds like you are making some good progress, Ella! :applaudit: That's interesting that she is more friendly in the mornings - that's the time to train then, and build trust. Hopefully as the trust begins to build, she'll start becoming more friendly in the evenings too.

So are you saying that she chooses to just sit on the food cup with the door open? That's absolutely fine. It might mean that she feels safer in or around her cage. Again as she becomes more confident with you, she'll hopefully choose to fly out to her play perch on her own. How did she fly around before? Did you physically take her out of the cage? I prefer just opening the cage door and letting a bird come out if she wants to.
 
Hello, I think you are making good progress indeed.
If you are in Southeast Asia you might be able to get chillie peppers easily and she will probably love those. Our Dora prefers red peppers, and it is the seeds that are the favourite part.
Try some of the whole seeds that you buy in the market, kalonji, cardamom, fenugreek, coriander, cumin, cloves, peppercorns - just a few though.
 
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