Flint: Attacking The Towel

Lesley

Regular Member
Before we got Kipp, Flint stepped up really nicely onto a towelled arm. He very rarely had a bite at the towel and if he did it was more of a chew than a bite.

Kipp has never really enjoyed the towel (or hands or sticks for that matter), he always sort of attacks the towel and mauls it. However, because he doesn't like it he will go back into his cage if I just call him too and so long as Flint goes in as well. So we don't have so much a problem with Kipp anymore. I just have to show him the towel even and he goes to his cage.

However, Flint has taken to really mauling the towel. When I call for Kipp Flint goes and hides below a chest of drawers. I put my towel wrapped arm on the floor and shout for him, he used to come out and step up normally - after a fair amount of coaxing from me of course. But for the last few days he has charged out and really gone for the towel.

I think he has copied Kipp, but it isn't because of the towel - he is just doing it for no reason I can see other than he doesn't want to go back in his cage. Not that it makes a difference, he still steps up but just in a very violent manner! He then dances a bit (because I sometimes try to distract him with dancing) but continues to try to bite it.

When he looks like biting it (once he is on my arm) I give my arm a little twist and say no - he has to concentrate on his balance then. Or I click my fingers near him to distract him from biting.

But I feel it is getting worse and wonder if anyone has ideas on what I could do to get him to stop mauling it?
 
Could you roll up a newspaper or something under your sleeve so he doesn`t see anything other than your arm so there`s nothing to attack, and if he does attack your arm the paper will save you from being mauled?
 
Or even try to distract him with a toy or something on the way back to the cage?
 
Sorry I'm not much help as I haven't manage to sort budge out yet.


However I have seen a picture of a perch with a hand guard. I'm going to see if Scarlett can get them in stock. It looked really good. Maybe something like that might help? Xx
 
Once he is on I can distract him with noises and dancing etc.

In the morning he steps onto my bare hands and it's a nice time - dont really want to change that routine. But I think I do need to try something.

Tonight Malc will get him, interested to see if it's the towel or me that he is angry with.

He is just a total copycat! Copying the bad stuff mind you!

I have a feeling it's not really about the towel. But I might try the newspaper trick Scarlett, just to see if there is a difference.
 
mmmm interesting lesley,is it the same towel? maybe flint is being stubborn and doesnt want to go in and got wise to the towel   :dntknw:
 
Hi Lesley,

Quite a common problem...

See replies in [ text bits ] where I've used basic behaviour modification methods to explain his behaviour and what you might do to change this.

You wrote:

Before we got Kipp, Flint stepped up really nicely onto a towelled arm. He very rarely had a bite at the towel and if he did it was more of a chew than a bite.

Kipp has never really enjoyed the towel (or hands or sticks for that matter), he always sort of attacks the towel and mauls it. However, because he doesn't like it he will go back into his cage if I just call him too and so long as Flint goes in as well. [This sounds like negative reinforcement; Kipp moves away from the towel, so goes to cage; he is habituated do this; gets no reward for doing this, other than provocative stimulus of towel removed.] So we don't have so much a problem with Kipp anymore. I just have to show him the towel even and he goes to his cage.

However, Flint has taken to really mauling the towel. [ Repeated exposure to the towel has reinforced an *unwanted* behaviour ] When I call for Kipp Flint goes and hides below a chest of drawers. I put my towel wrapped arm on the floor and shout for him, he used to come out and step up normally - after a fair amount of coaxing from me of course. But for the last few days he has charged out and really gone for the towel. [Flint dislikes the towel and where it is shown, he initially tries to avoid (moves away) but if remains visible, has adopt an alternative method of trying get rid unwanted stimulus, so attacks as sees no other way resolve issue for himself. This a form negative reinforcement will probably continue react in same on sight (this behaviour being reinforced).]

I think he has copied Kipp, [ Yes.] but it isn't because of the towel - he is just doing it for no reason I can see other than he doesn't want to go back in his cage. [ All behaviours are done for a very good reason (from the bird's point of view.) Behaviour is never done at random; something stimulates it, and the bird reacts in whatever ways he thinks will help him avoid anything unpleasant, or gain something nice. ] not that it makes a difference, he still steps up but just in a very violent manner! [ This is negatgive reinforcement and/or what is called 'flooding'. He want the unwanted stimulus to cease, and the only way he can see of acheiving this is to agree, reluctantly, to step up, so, he gives in. He gets no reward for stepping up, so has no incentive, (other than cessation of the negative reinforcement/flooding)to agree to step up.] He then dances a bit (because I sometimes try to distract him with dancing) but continues to try to bite it. [ He tries to show assertive behaviours by biting the towel in frustration (displaced aggression.) As long as he is presented with the towel, he will continue to react in this way, and the behaviours will be reinforced.

When he looks like biting it (once he is on my arm) I give my arm a little twist and say no - he has to concentrate on his balance then. Or I click my fingers near him to distract him from biting. [ If he does not like the arm being twisted, he will react, negatively, to this when he can in an attempt to have it stopped. ]

But I feel it is getting worse and wonder if anyone has ideas on what I could do to get him to stop mauling it?

[ Here's what I suggest. The following training is aimed at getting him to associate a stick with only *positive* experiences. So, first, avoid all locations and materials which he already associates with aggression, as these will only stimulate and reinforce his current behaviours.

Next, carry out target training for favourite food rewards; point at a place near him, with a hand-held stick: when/if he approaches the place, give him a favourite treat, and praise him verbally. On days when training is being done, do not allow any access to *favourite* food items, other than as rewards for desired behaviours.

After this behaviour is patterened in him (over a few days perhaps),change your target behaviour. So now you want him to approach the stick and touch it with his beak or feet; if/when he does, give a reward. Pattern this behaviour into him by repetition.

Next stage: require him to stand on the stick for one second, then step off, then reward as usual.

Next stage, ask him to step onto stick, stay there for 3 seconds, as you move the stick a tiny bit, then ask him to "step off" then reward. Use food rewards at all stages and combine these with verbal praise. Train birds one at a time to keep things simple. Avoid negative reinforcement at all times. If a bird shows aggression, leave the room and leave the bird on its own for a few minutes each and every time any aggression is shown; never stay inthe presence of an aggressive bird.

During changing a behaviour a thing called 'extinction burst' usually takes place. This is where the unwanted behaviour (biting the towel) initially, and temporarily, actually gets *worse*. Anthropopmorphically, people interpret the bird as beingdeliberately antagonistic. This wrong; this thing occurs universally with all animals and people in many circumstances. It usually passes if the trainer us calm and consitent and the rewards for new behaviours are 'valuable' enough for the animal.

Always be *caslm, slow and deliberate in all movements* when training; calm birds learn fast; exited/hyped up ones only learn with difficulty, as you risk losing 'the stimulus contol you need for learning to occur. So, try to make sure the birds cannot get hyped up. But to get a bird to make the connection with a desired behaviour and a reward, you have to give the rewards immediately following the behaviour, or even an *attempt* by the bird to show that behaviour. So always reward cooperation, but never react to a 'failure'; just use positive reinforcement like this at all times if you can.

You should see an improvement within 2 weeks if all goes well.

For more info, Google "Learning theory" and/or "applied bahaviour analysis". It does not matter what animals (including humans) are being discussed as ABA and Learning Theory apply universally to any animal capable of learning new things. You can always contact me via my website as well or pm me here.

Best wishes, ]
 
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Well last night I called Kipp through and Malc went to get Flint, he was the perfect gentleman - stepping up nicely and behaving himself!

So I think it's me rather than the towel. He was the same this morning, really going for it, then shouting 'hey!' :laugh:  . I used a different towel to put him in the shower and he had a bite at that as well.

I'm thinking to ignore it, just not speak to him or look at him when he does it. I dunno, I'll try the other suggestions as well.
 
Sorry Greg, just saw your response after I typed this.

With Kipp, he gets a reward if he flies to his cage. This training was done over time - separately to the use of the towel for returning him to his cage. Although he flies to his cage when asked to, I don't think it is entirely to avoid the towel - I think he responds well to that sort of target training.

Flint, on the other hand never has.

I have tried in the past to train him to step up onto a stick, I couldn't get him not to be terrified of any stick/perch big enough to step onto outside of his cage. But he was always really happy to step onto a towelled arm, for anybody.

He still will for Malcolm.

I find Flint to be a much harder bird to train than Kipp is because he is really not interested in food. He couldn't care less whether he gets a treat or not, quite often throwing the treat away (even his ultimate favourites). This is where I have the biggest problem with him, I don't know how to motivate him.

I'd actually like to continue with the towel but somehow make it positive again.

Might go back to the basics of leaving the towel near their area so they can get used to it being around, treat them for going close, and finally for touching it. Then move to putting the towel on my arm etc etc.

I'll do it with both of them.

But then I'm left with no way of getting Flint back in his cage in the meantime!
 
This does sound like a tricky situation Lesley, but I think going back to basics may best with Flint. I do agree that Greg's training can work as I've used it with my Charlee girl, although I did modify it as she freaks out with a stick (maybe she's had very bad experiences in her past)

Good luck

Julie
 
Possibly being a little naive here but what is the towl for, is it just to protect your arm from bites and scratches?
 
When Flint is in a nice mood (ie Kipp or Malc aren't around) he will step onto my bare hand. But it doesn't take much for him to refuse to do this.

He has always stepped up well to a covered arm - can use a towel a jacket etc but the hand must be covered.

Kipp won't let a bare hand near him, with time he was getting better with the towel but now he does well with a command to go back to his cage. But I think I need to go back to training them both with the towel.

Both have bites that I can't really tolerate, especially Kipp so I really try to avoid situations where they might bite me. I don't think I'm a complete woose but it is pretty grim, so maybe I am :dntknw:  .

Also, I like using the towel as it means that anyone can get them back to their cages without worrying about bites. This still works well for the parrot sitter.

I can see that the problem is around me. Flint may not like that Kipp no longer uses the towel. I think it might be best to go back to basics with both of them! Clearly things had gotten too easy!! They certainly keep us on our toes eh?! 

I also think there has been a lot of change for Flint in the last 6 months with Kipp coming along, I am going to watch them more closely and make sure they are both getting enough interaction with me. Kipp comes and looks for attention, Flint doesn't so much. If I approach both Kipp always comes forward first, if Malc approaches Flint comes forward. . Maybe he feels a bit jealous of Kipp with me. Flint still drops his wings and tries to regurgitate for me sometimes, he also does this with Kipp. Maybe some one to one time with Flint will help, I just feel bad though because Kipp gets really unhappy if Flint and I are upstairs and he isn't! But needs must, Kipp will cope I'm sure.

As Greg said, there is always a reason, figuring it out is the hard part!
 
I definitely think trying to figure out what's going through their minds is the hardest bit. I hope you sort it all out, I'm sure Flint has his reasons, Blue can be a grumpy bugger sometimes!
Good luck. :)
 
Yeah, Flint has always been a bit of a grump, but not aggressive so I want to nip this in the bud before it becomes a bigger issue.

It still amazes me how different he two of them are in their natures, yet they are the best of friends!
 
Hi Lesley,
From post No 10, it sounds as though both birds are h reared and and Flint is sexually imprinted on human males; hence he accepts thing from Malcolm more easily. So, he may be 'provoked' into aggression by being asked to do something by you, as you are a rival for Malcolm's attention.

So, I would try to have Malcolm interact with him more than you, if poss.

Flint must like some foods better than others; So, I would do a food test on him and repeat this a few times to determine what things he eats, when he can only take *one* item at a time. Try it first thing in the morning, before he has access to food in his bowls.

Maybe he has some fav. toys you could use instead?
*******************************

I should say that the methods I use are not really 'mine', they are just standard ABA methods used by many who interact with captive animals.

But yes, the key things are finding some item or action which can be used as a powerful reward for desired behaviors, and refusing to stay in the compasny of a bird who shows aggression/unwanted behaviours. This is sort of 'time out by proxy' and again is a standard device for reacting appropriately to unwanted behaviours.

All the best,
 
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Thanks Greg,

I read up on some of the 'applied behaviour analysis' stuff yesterday. It all makes sense. I certainly will be trying to understand the triggers and consequences better to allow me to take the right approach.

As for a treat/reward for Flint, I know the foods he loves. But when he is annoyed there is no food he cares about, and any toy you put near him he would just have a go at. I basically have to figure out the things that make him annoyed and try to remove them or train him not to be annoyed at them I think.

Oddly, Flint regurgitates for me but never for Malc, he is also better at stepping onto my bare hand etc (when in a good mood) and gets really excited to see me when I've been out. But, he will follow Malc around a bit and behaves very well for him. I'm the person at home the most so I have to find a way to live with both birds nicely! Malc put Flint to bed last night with the towel and he was perfect. But when Malc is home I'll encourage him to spend some time with Flint - although mostly Flint and Kipp play in the hallwall

I spent some time yesterday training with them both, doing a come here and stop command with their names. Kipp is very good, they both know their names which is nice. Flint was unhappy about the training, he would take the treat but just throw it or drop it, but he was actually doing the things I was asking pretty well.

I also put the towel on the floor next to me, Flint was unhappy about this, so was Kipp, but Kipp quickly realised that he'd get a treat if he didn't bite it!

I have no other way of getting Flint back in his cage at the moment, so I feel that trying to get him happy with the towel and me again is what I need to work on.

I would say they were both human imprinted, but the nice thing is they really love each other. The regurgitate and play together really well now.
 
It would be hard, but could you balance a nut or something on the towel and present it to him so he doesn`t always associate the towel with stepping up and being caged? He`ll go to attack it then realise 'oh, she was just bringing me a nut on it'?

Maybe worth a try?
 
Yes, thats the kind of thing I was doing yesterday, had the towel on the floor and was feeding them treat over it if they didn't bite it.

I plan to leave it lying around more with treats on it as well so that they just get used to it.

I can't say I fully understand why he suddenly changed towards it, I reckon it was seeing Kipp's fear of it that triggered it and it's just getting worse.

So I think I need to tackle both of their fear of it together.

I might try a different towel actually, I don't think it will make a difference but no harm in trying.

On the positive, Kipp is really doing well just now, responding really well to basic training. He is pretty quick to learn new stuff, he screeches a lot less and is really quite a nice bird to have around. He is still partial to the occasional foot ambush - but nobody is perfect :biggrin:
 
Lol, you`ve come such a long way with them, and them with eachother!

Sounds like everyone is doing great!
 
Its great they love each other.


What I,find really hard to get my head round with budge is when he goes in for the kill then says darling in the cutest voice ever xx
 
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