Feeding Debate!

Beowulf said:
Opinions are like arseholes, we've got one and most of them stink.
i prefer the penis analogy
 
its fine to have one,its fine to be proud of it but don't wave it in peoples faces or try to put it where its not welcome!!!
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Not heard that one, I like it!
 
Hmmm...

Well, Beowolf, from your contributions above, it seems you may have some sort of problem which cannot be discussed within the realms of rational debate.  

Re.  keas.  Good book; Kea; Bird of Paradox, by Diamond and Bond 1999.   They spent several years studying this sp. and were the first to be able to sex them visually.  They went back again a few years later to do more work, after 2000.   To answer your Q re. their diet; keas have lived alongside shearwaters for millions of years, and they eat these birds; so we know that other vertebrates are part of their normal diet *in the wild*.  From this fact we can glean that their digestive system is adapted to eating other birds.  For video footage, see Life of Birds, Attenborough/BBC 2002?   Diamond and Bond suggest they may have eaten moas (which were later exterminated by humans).  Later these birds were known to eat the kidneys of live, (intoduced) sheep.   

Don't know what all the other  stuff about you being thought of as a 'rapist' (!)  is all about....  Again, too wierd for me to even think of taking part in such ramblings. 

Yes, certainly, as anecdotal info increases, it becomes more valuable, esp. so when it is viewed critically by other disinterested parties.  

It's probably best if I cease replying to you specifically, as *regardless* of what I say you will feel inflamed; so further discussion will degenerate into more personal comments rather than keeping to the subject.  The loud red letters and shouty capitals are a bit much really.  And it's said *I* lack people skills...! 

"Go placidly amid the noise and haste..." ? 
 
I think it is far too easy to move down the line of saying Jon is irrational and has a problem with you Greg. He has supported you on a number of points in the past. It is too easy to cry out that someone is getting at you when you openly joined in on a debate. A debate that a number of people challenged your ideas on. I think perhaps if you commented on Dizzy Blue's scientific evidence rather than claiming that Jon has got it in for you - you may find that people will listen to your view. In a debate people put there points forward. People may not agree with each other but need to acknowledge the points they make. Just deflecting things by claiming Jon is lying and is irrational (the comments had been made when Jon was previously using my login) is wrong. He offered very good advice to Lesley and other members and they believed his guidance and advice was very useful. But this moves away from the issue.

People started by discussing diets for their birds and what other people were feeding as diets and how that may help members and their birds. We may not agree what others feed but at this point in time there is not enough research to fully prove that these different diets are wrong. I know that a particular member - I wont mention their name as have not asked them - has told me that they have adjusted their birds diet based on research of amino acids in protein and other foods that worked with them to increase Keratin production and as a result feather growth has improved! Just because one person may not agree with one view it does not mean that it is wrong.

Everyone on this forum does the best they can for their birds. Lockey started a discussion to benefit members and their birds. People have different beliefs and ideas - we can respect those and if we do not agree state it - do not start calling people irrational.

Kate xxx
 
Kate, I don't suppose I could get some of that information about changing the diet for feather growth could I?
Blue's made so much progress on growing his feathers back since I got him but any help just to get this last bit back would be really appreciated. :)
 
Beowulf said:
Don't know about irrational but you,are starting to sound a bit obsessed xx

Hi ann marie


The only thing i'm obsessed with is getting a straight factual answer from a man who claims to be a parrot behaviourist/ expert


He has given an opinion and asked others back theirs up with science this was done by dizzy he however has answered only a question on kea diet that no-one asked!! and has only his opinion to back his rhetoric filled "claims"


He will not answer my questions because that will show the truth of the matter it is easier to claim i am irrational or that i'm hounding him .....well in this case i am ,i'm hounding him for answers to questions posed to counter his rhetoric and although he thinks i'm "inflamed" i'm not although him insinuating i lied about his disgusting analogy of a method (he knew not what remeber but couldn't stand the fact others could and would help) i was going to suggest to lesley has irratated me a little but then anyone can see who lied by reading the thread


He asks for reasoned debate but when he has not the answers or the decency to admit that he starts the rhetoric and claims of persecution


Back to topic


In what way is the keas digestive tract(gut) different to any other parrot??


ps ann marie do you think analogies like the one greg posed are slightly repugnent ...i do


atb jon
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Maybe if you copy the full text of gregs reply it does show that,he,was talking in general terms and giving a human example and not in fact referring to you as being a rapist xx
 
Beowulf said:
Maybe if you copy the full text of gregs reply it does show that,he,was talking in general terms and giving a human example and not in fact referring to you as being a rapist xx
 Well feel free to do that ann marie but the fact is he was replying to me and the analogy ,as usual was design to shock it is rhetoric and more than that he had no idea what i had in mind!!


Are you honestly telling me you could not think of a less "shocking" eminently more apropriate analogy? i think if you answered honestly you could.


Now to the topic ann marie who's questions has he answered?? only the one he made in his head and then with his "opinion" wheres the science greg loves so well


He will not answer because the answer does not suit his opinions and in truth thats all he has (just like everyone else here) he is not a recognised expert in the field by anyone other than his publisher and himself.


atb jon


ps for recognised experts see dizzies links
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no it wouldn't be an example I would use but I can take it in the context it was meant and I wouldn't be losing any sleep over it.


But I do hope you manage to completely discredit Greg then at least you might be able to get some sleep.xx
 
Beowulf said:
by the way i did not say he called me a rapist he equated me to one which is what you do if say jon doing this or that with a bird is equivolent to rape at gun point

Yes /no?
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You make me smile its just like having a debate with my John he never stops either. Yes lol xx
 
Beowulf said:
no it wouldn't be an example I would use but I can take it in the context it was meant and I wouldn't be losing any sleep over it.
But I do hope you manage to completely discredit Greg then at least you might be able to get some sleep.xx


he's doing that him self anyone viewing sees him dodge,weave and basically do all he can to avoid giving a straight scientific reply to what has been put to him and thats because the answer is as i've said ....unpalatable for him now if anything i've said is untrue please correct me!!


ps you won't mind if i use equally disgusting analogies to describe your bird keeping??? i think thats untrue but i wouldn't lower myself to that gutter anyway


If you want the quotes saying i think greg has much to offer i'll put them up but as you say i'll do it in context with the critisism that was given


back to topic ann marie


What answers to relevant questions has he given?


Its this that makes him look silly not me and for what its worth thats not my aim i'll re-iterate i think greg has much to offer but no-one will ever know unless he talks in a way that is cohesive to listening


atb jon


ps i'm on as much today not just for this i;m making the most of actually being able to get on the puter!
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I wouldn't mind you using any analogies to describe my bird keeping as I would just justify my actions and as long as I was happy I was doing my best by them I would sit back and enjoy the debate. Probably a much different case if you pointed out something that was true in which case your words would torment me xx
 
I think Jon feels insulted and is not out to discredit anyone - this is down to a difference in opinion to which Greg started to get personal and neglected to comment on the scientific data presented in discussion

But I have now applied tranquilizers and he is chilling out now. I think I need to change his password and not tell him as he's had too much fun today it shouldnt be allowed! :rofl:  

But your right Anne Marie he'll agrue until he drops dead if he feels he is right :wall:
 
Its East Lancashire men Kate - they are all the same !!!!

I love a good debate but these ones always seem to get personal and i don't like it when anyone feels insulted or got at no matter which opinion they have.  Its a shame as we are all on here because of our love of parrots xx
 
Back on Jon's original question........

I'm sure when we went to the vets before I moved to Richard she said that parrots don't have the digestive enzymes to process meat.  I've just had a bit of a look on Google and there isn't a lot of information but the bits I could find seemed to support this.  There is even a mention of one person adding digestive enzymes to the meat so they can eat it (which sounds weird).  It says that if you have to feed meat it should only be white meat.  It mentions about meat causing problems with the liver because it can't process the meat particles.

But some birds do eat meat so what is the difference?  With the Kea could it have developed the enzymes to process meat? xx
 
According to the biologist in the house some people do have to add enzymes due to illness, this is due to the pancreas or the small intestines not functioning as it should. The pancreas produces 3 types of protein digesting enzymes (and others for fats and carbs) - two for breaking down bonds that hold protein molecules together and another for breaking down amino acids which are basic protein structure. The pancreas pumps these enzymes into the small intestine (stomach is not used for direct digestion it is used for sterilizing the food and ensuring no bacteria enters the small intestine and breaks food down on a basic level to allow food to pass into the intestine) which breaks everything down and for diffusing protein etc into the blood. this is a basic route for the digestive system of most animals. this means that certain types of animals will have different types of digestive tract due to a VERY speacialised diet. this means that certain animals will although mainly consuming certain matters (EG plant matter) will have enzymes adapted for eating other food matters and so will be able to ,despite consuming one type of food matter, vary the diet and so if said animal was to be in an opportunity where it needs to or was able to consume other types of food matter , this would not endanger the animal as it is adapted to have enzymes which can break down a wide range of food matter (eg plant and meat matter).

Hope this helps

Kate xxx
 
To be honest i was curious as to what people feed there birds and there has been a few different opinions but the more i think about it i don't really give a t**s as long as other peoples birds are happy and healthy.

Why do i need to change the diet mine are on? i don't !.

All of my birds look spot on,they breed regularly and are very fit and healthy so i must be doing something right.

All debates run the risk of getting personal but if someone ask's a question answer it! Don't worry you can't be right all the time.

Will i still feed meat? yes a little until it's out of the grey area and in black and white.
 
Ok, interesting debate!! if a little derailed....I actually think threads like this are good, as long as we don't go down the route of personal insults, everyone is welcome and indeed encouraged to express their views, the fact that a few have similar views doesn't make it a flock mentality, they think along the same lines on a particular point, probably not on others, such is life, and of course are welcome to post them views.

To be honest Greg your cabbage to falcons post was always going to cause this kind of heated debate, not saying it was intended , sure it wasn't , all I'm saying is keep it on the level guys  :thumbsup:
 
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