Feeding Debate!

Much of the above posts, re. feeding of other dead birds to parrots, relates to what people are feeding their birds *in captivity*; it is not based on what we already know of the birds' natural diets.  Parrots are *not* obligate carnivores and instead have a digestive tract adapted to deriving all their protien needs from vegetable sources.  Until I hear of parrots like greys and Amazons etc eating other birds in the wild, then I would not think of giving them such foods; they are not adapted to such things, and provision of cooked animal protien is alien to them.  It may also increase risks of food poisoning.    Keas do eat other birds; they eat them raw, and they are  usually alive (shearwater chicks) as they are eaten.  Yes, if I kept keas, I might offer them complete/animal protien, as this species is obviously adapted to this.  

It's no good saying we *are* going to use what we know of the birds' needs in the wild as a basis for their care in captivity, if we then choose to ignore it....  

I would not take *any advice* re. raising of birds, from a convicted criminal/Sissens who has been jailed for his activities re. bird care.  

So, again, to provide properly for a species, (any spp) I feel we should be guided by what they do in the wild, and try to use that info as our guide.   We don't have to kill other birds, to feed parrots.  
 
Harry Being jailed was not his fault, he was given a pair of birds by a government with correct paperwork.

When harry seen the birds he found that it wasn't a lears macaw there for the paper work wasn't right,hence his problems.That is nothing to do with bird care.

One thing i will say Greg is that man has done more for conservation with parrots than you have had hot dinners!

He doesn't preach OTHER peoples work nor does he try to ram it down peoples throats.

The pricks that write these papers Greg are scientists, not really bird keepers.

Watching a parrot in a lab or if they get the funding have a field trip to a clay bank doesn't make them experts.

People like Harry who breed more rare birds than Loro park,who by the way has a lot of Harry's birds don't claim to be experts.

But buy working with birds everyday feeding,cleaning and watching the way they interact will do far more good conservation wise than some gob-shite banging on about how many toys a parrot should have, if it wasn't for people like Harry the only place you would see some of these birds is a museum. 

For the people who don't know Harry see the other side of the story  


://www.ckcbirds.co.uk/harrysissen.htm 
 
I dont allow my cats to have chicken bones due to the splintering of bones nor did i allow my gundogs to have chicken or pork bones due to the dame reason.. As there is very little study information regarding the specific requirements and feed structures of companion birds in captivity i.e. parrot in a cage in a house I started to read about nutitional equirements my raptor dude vet suggested I get my head in the books in an attempt to get it vaguely right! The reason Henni gets the access to a little shredded white boiled chicken meat (about twice a month) is due only in part to the amino acids that she lacks within her diet.  I do not feed pellets but as you all have seen she gets a very large variety of things from seeds to fruit and veggies. The reason I feed this and not pellets is that I read a document on the internet when it was released in 2010 regarding a study done using lazer beams on orange winged ammies to see how much time they spend eating pellets.  Extract can be read here http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/applan/article/S0168-1591(10)00097-3/abstract basically if everything is provided in a pellet format what the heck are they going to spend the rest of the day doing? So I kept to feeding what I already had been doing for a number of years and tried to make sure I studied all the things any of my birds (especially DizzyBlue by BFA) could get more then the majority of things he required for a balanced diet. It was the lysine factor and the amino acid trails that seemed to vary to too great a degree for me hence an access route to these items in a high protein format to readress the balance. I have to say I do not force any of the animals in my care to do or eat anything they dont want to (unless raptor dude saays so such as meds etc) I hold nothing food wise in my house that means any of my animals could eat it by mistake.  The aim for me personally is to improve upon the diet that my animals are provided with ensuring that they received proper access to the correct vitamins and minerals, lysine, amino acid chains etc etc as the list is never ending, yes it means a lot of reading yes it means some very strange shopping and no spare time to go do any socialising or popping out for a swift half down the pub but I chose to take them on so it is my duty of care to ensure that they get offered whatever is within my power to offer. Just because I dont like something or feel I am against something does not mean I know better then mother nature nor does it mean that I should deny my motley crew, since Henni cannot be released into the wild to live a proper parrot life then the person I am going to listen too will be my avian vet......even if he does sometimes tell me I need to get a life and stop fretting about me flock!! lmtfo ....just realised maybe I should post that link up on the pellet vs seed thread going else where think Bob has the best choice / balance going on in that line!! :thumbsup:
 
I really dont see the problem with feeding chicken, Blue's tucking into some roast chicken and veg as I write this.
He loves it and it's hardly doing him any harm, I can try and imitate what he would eat in the wild all day long but at the end of the day he's not in the wild, he's in my living room, eating chicken. Saying feeding chicken to a parrot is wrong is like saying I shouldn't eat beef because it's a mammal.
 
For Ruppells i used to feed the soft bill one the insect egg food.


Ruppells need a high protein diet and used to love meal worms.
 
Well I have to say I am quite disheartened Greg you asked for somebody to point you in the direction of evidence in support of the meat or not theory and I do whole heartedly agree if its not your thing its not your thing but why not just say so? To discount all the information links written by avian vets, professors and avian nutritionist just because of you disliking Mr Sissons was to say the least disheartening. You like your scientific evidence and quote from many places....my only hope is that you have not commented on the other items I linked to purely because you have not had chance as yet to read them through. I was hoping you too would link to some places / sites that would provide the rest of us with other information.

Either which way it is everybodys right to have an opinion one way or the other.....

I will just say this one thing more on this thread line as there are only three places on this forum you seem to post and read on as I never see you in the good morning thread line.... Merry Christmas and a very happy new year to you and your flock :rose:  and before anybody jumps down my throat or thinks i'm being sarcastic I mean it most sincerely.
 
Maybe you should just create a Greg bashing area of the forum that way you can all go there when you feel the need to flex your intellectual muscles. Ýou could see who can be the nastiest then all like that post. It seems flock mentality isn't only applicable to parrots.

Give the man a break and let him answer you!
 
I have stayed quiet on this thread simply cos I dont have the knowledge or experience of most of you so I would be out of place to comment. However, I do see very close similarities to when I was living in the same house as my brother in London. I wont bore people with the details but he was of the opinion that there was 2 ways of doing things, His way or the wrong way. Why cant people accept there is more than one way of doing things to get to the same goal.

I am not sure that being domesticated or not is much to do with it and my dog is a Dachshund, bred in Germany for hunting Badgers. Does that mean I should dig up my garden and keep badgers just to satisfy his natural instincts? He eats dried food as a main diet though I doubt there is too much Butchers all in one laying on the ground in the Black Forrest. The same goes for our birds, what Greg says I imagine is 100% correct. We might only be doing things 97% correctly and if that is the case I am happy to continue doing so as I am sure most of us will be. I dont believe for one minute that our babies will suffer as a result of this. Jasper is not a canibal but when I am eating Christmas dinner, if he wants a tiny amount of turkey he will have it. If he appears he really loves it that is when common sense will come in and I will make sure he does not get enough to make him ill.

Cheers

Nigel
 
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Maybe you should just create a Greg bashing area of the forum that way you can all go there when you feel the need to flex your intellectual muscles. Ýou could see who can be the nastiest then all like that post. It seems flock mentality isn't only applicable to parrots. Give the man a break and let him answer you!
 
Got that one wrong i think john i've no flock mentality it just appears people are AGREEING as for Greg answering we'll see eh he's been given links by dizzy and the best he can do is deflect their relavance by saying ONE was convicted on what appears to be a farce!!! speaking of which brings me to his constent emotive phrases designed to make people feel bad about what they do (he would have made a good priest they give sermons designed to keep people in line) if he can get rid of his animal lib rhetoric and supply some substance he may get further as for wanting his qualifications i've made my reasons clear i'm sick of hearing bigoted ideas on bird keeping based on one MANS morals who dismisses other very knowledgable peoples thoughts and experiences as worthless when they don't fit HIS views(shanlung was made out to be uninteligable by greg so maybe greg should learn chinese) and why? i think it was simply because he had NO CREDIBLE ANSWERS just as he's given here!!
 
If greg is under fire its for talking nonsense its as simple as that so you tell me what he's posted in this thread that hasn't been given an answer then show me his credible answers that don't contain rhetoric
 
atb jon
I've got a lot of respect for you Jon actually you are one of the few people on this forum that will post a view regardless if you are backed up by others or not and i agree with most of what you say.

It just makes painful reading when a group of people are firing into one person and that one person always seems to be Greg. He is entitled to his opinion like the rest of us. I am pretty sure if i was hit with so many replies i would end up missing replying to half the the the questions.
 
It's not Greg's knowledge that gets people's backs up, it's his lack of people skills. You can be the most knowledgeable person in the world, but if you don't have people skills to deliver the information then no one is going to listen.
 
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I take it by that remark about Greg bashing you must be implying myself then!!! I was being polite I was also being sincere and yes I do like to read a lot and yes I do like to see other peoples side of things and was being sincere in my request for further information from Greg regarding his point of view because at 47 i am very well aware there are two sides to every coin. If any body has issue with this please report me to the administration team I am sure they will make an evaluated decision and yes I'm more then happy to sling my hook if you think its me....it akes two to tango I never see anybody pulling greg up when he's obviously in the past upset people and if I am big enough and sincer enough to wish somebody merry christmas in a truely heartfelt manner and people are unable to see that then they need to take their blinkers off and stop pre-judging those they dont know personal.
 
It's not Greg's knowledge that gets people's backs up, it's his lack of people skills. You can be the most knowledgeable person in the world, but if you don't have people skills to deliver the information then no one is going to listen.
I could not agree more with you there. But still it isn't fair when its several people onto one.
 
I for one have been on the receiving end of Greg many times. Unfortunately I cannot put my opinions as well as others often losing my cool!


Greg is respected by Many but his approach and self opinionated ways put people's backs straight up.... I wonder just how many people actually block his posts?? I don't as I'm always open to learn new things as we are always learning !! Nobody knows everything about everything... On this forum we all share our experiences to try and help others not to be ridiculed!


It is funny how this happens every so often and creates bad feeling then it goes quiet all is restored in the parrot club then it starts again!!!


The most important factor is that everyone on here has their birds interests at heart and we do our best to give what we feel is the best possible care we can!


Me and mark are very responsible breeders and don't take kindly to being constantly made out to not be.... There are many people out there who I have supported that have been sold unweaned babies..... These are the people that need to be targeted with regard to breeding along with the breeders that churn out thousands of birds and sell to pet shops!


For those of you that are relatively new to the forum it's a shame you haven't been able to share the rearing of my babies, which I normally post a video diary ... This I will not do due to the negative comments received by a one certain person!!


I know I have the support of this forum for what I do and my ethics behind it... And that's all that matters to me!


Regards


Nikki and Mark xx
 
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I take it by that remark about Greg bashing you must be implying myself then!!! I was being polite I was also being sincere and yes I do like to read a lot and yes I do like to see other peoples side of things and was being sincere in my request for further information from Greg regarding his point of view because at 47 i am very well aware there are two sides to every coin. If any body has issue with this please report me to the administration team I am sure they will make an evaluated decision and yes I'm more then happy to sling my hook if you think its me....it akes two to tango I never see anybody pulling greg up when he's obviously in the past upset people and if I am big enough and sincer enough to wish somebody merry christmas in a truely heartfelt manner and people are unable to see that then they need to take their blinkers off and stop pre-judging those they dont know personal.
Well at 54 i stopped running off to tell the teacher a long time ago. but that is a very well constructed reply that i am sure will get you a lot of support from people begging you not to leave.

I wasn't getting a you or anyone else individually
 
I for one have been on the receiving end of Greg many times. Unfortunately I cannot put my opinions as well as others often losing my cool!
Greg is respected by Many but his approach and self opinionated ways put people's backs straight up.... I wonder just how many people actually block his posts?? I don't as I'm always open to learn new things as we are always learning !! Nobody knows everything about everything... On this forum we all share our experiences to try and help others not to be ridiculed!
It is funny how this happens every so often and creates bad feeling then it goes quiet all is restored in the parrot club then it starts again!!!
The most important factor is that everyone on here has their birds interests at heart and we do our best to give what we feel is the best possible care we can!
Me and mark are very responsible breeders and don't take kindly to being constantly made out to not be.... There are many people out there who I have supported that have been sold unweaned babies..... These are the people that need to be targeted with regard to breeding along with the breeders that churn out thousands of birds and sell to pet shops!
For those of you that are relatively new to the forum it's a shame you haven't been able to share the rearing of my babies, which I normally post a video diary ... This I will not do due to the negative comments received by a one certain person!!
I know I have the support of this forum for what I do and my ethics behind it... And that's all that matters to me!
Regards
Nikki and Mark xx
You don't need to defend yourself nikki as we all know what your like and how you look after your birds. we are still grateful for all your help with holly. you also don't need to express yourself any differently to the way you do. most of us relate to experiences of others not science papers.
 
Hello Sarah Jane, Beowolf, John and all,

I apologise for my lack of people skills; however I do think there is a sort of crowd mentality against some of my views here. 

However, I maintain these views. 

1. We should strive to base our care of each species on what we know that species does does in the wild; this relates to feeding and other behaviours.  Sadly much advice offered for birds in captivity is not based onwhat thespecies is adapted to; thiss has welfare implications for the species concerned.  

2. My welfare aspects of animals is not restricted to parrots; it applies to all creatures including chickens (which I also keep).  I would find a  contradiction in claiming to 'like' animals if one also ate them. 

3. One cannot extract oneself from an argument using reason, if one did not, at first use reason to get into that discussion. 

4.  Sissens was convicted of criminal offences by his peers, a UK Jury, regarding his birds;  he has a criminal record re. birds which stands.   One does not go to a criminal for advice on lawful activities. 

5.  Beowolf seems to have some personal problem with my contributions; however, he, like anyone else can of course choose to agree or disagree with my thoughts.  I am not, forcing my views on anyone; it's a free world, as adults we can all accept or reject arguments as we choose.  However Beowolf's anti stance re. me seems a bit 'personal' and possibly is a bit wierd as well.  I would suggest discussing *issues*, not merely bashing individuals.  Some politeness, some restraint perhaps...?

6.  A more objective (though far from perfect) view of issues is best based on scientific data, rather than anecdote alone; though anecdote can of course make valuable contributions to  our knowledge, when it assessed objectively.  

7. Most *bird-keeping* texts are based merely on anecdotal advice, with little reference to the species' actual circumstances.  This is why much of this advice is poor.   But texts based on observed facts coroborrated from a range of sources are of greater worth than anecdote alone.  

8.  I'll try to improve my people skills; but face-to-face communications are generally better for me than Forum notes/email etc.  

Best wises to all,

For the birds (all of them, regardless of species) 

Greg.   
 
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